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On Reader Mail, Level Drain

Owen writes:

"So, I've been enjoying your Hack & Slash blog suggestions for HotDQ. 

I ran the beginning of Castle Naerytar the other evening and I liked your suggestion of using the Pale Eye cultists so much, the party ran smack into two of the level draining faceless white witch-things.

The foolish druid ignored them in favor of another opponent and was bitten twice. Bam. Two levels. I hadn't given much thought to how levels might or might not be restored.

What are your thoughts?"

Oh, this old chestnut again! A new edition and it rears its head up to bedevil new players. 

Level drain officially doesn't exist in 5th edition. This is the replacement: 

"The target's hit point maximum is reduced by an amount equal to the necrotic damage taken, and the creature regains hit points equal to that amount. The reduction lasts until the target finishes a long rest. The target dies if this effect reduces its hit point maximum to 0."
People don't like level drain. It isn't fair. It takes away something that took weeks (or longer) to earn.

That is the point!

You aren't supposed to like it. You aren't supposed to get rid of it with a long rest or a spell. You are supposed to stop and say "That creature is terrifying!" and really not like what it can do to you.

Of course, modern players and their ideas of what's "fair" and not wanting to have anything bad happen to them may create a situation where your milage may be fluctuating independently of my experience.

Being that this is 5th edition, I would have each hit drain 2d4x500 experience. I would not reduce the experience level (with death at 0 experience), I would just require them to earn back the experience before they could continue gaining experience. The reason for this is twofold.

  • First, very little actually happens when you gain a level in 5th edition. In general, unless it's a threshold level (5, 10, etc.) Your to hit bonus isn't going to change, your hit points are going to differ only slightly, and you'll lose a class feature or two. It is simultaneously difficult to track and not globally significant. (Yes, on a stat gain level, it might increase your chance to hit and strength checks and some such, but whatever the penalty is, isn't usually global, even if it is a little important for a subsystem like combat.)
    • In summation, the complexity far outweighs the benefit of tracking the reduction in level, unless that level is a threshold level, and even in that case it's better to be consistent.
  • They still lose the experience, putting them that much father from the next level. This is a painful enough consequence that it will make them seriously consider the strength of your opponent. 
That said, it is wonderful to hear about people using materials you create in the world! It's even nicer to hear from people who use them. For those of you enjoy my posts or who have used my materials in your games, you can thank the great team of patrons who made it possible! Without them, there would be no blog compendium, no Hoard of the Dragon Queen conversions, no blog posts at all since 2013! I would have needed to move on. 

Right now those Patrons are making an art-filled ecology book possible, as well as allowing me to donate to the cancer research foundation so they can find new ways to combat cancers, so that maybe other people in the future don't have to go through what my wife is going through.  

Thank you. It's an honor.



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On Giving the Experience for Combat

In a hangout game last week I mentioned that I didn't give experience points for killing monsters in +Numenhalla.

I was taken aback as it was pointed out that every single person in the hangout gave no experience points for combat.

The Problem with Experience in a Nutshell


I've talked at length before about why I don't give experience for killing monsters.

I have had conversations about why we should kill someone we've encountered because we'd be letting the experience points go. If we get 600 experience each for killing the bear, then I want to kill the bear. I don't care if it's just minding its own business in the forest.

There are lots of subjective solutions to this problem. That's a problem for me too. I like to have a quantifiable, objective, clear, goal that grants experience. The first time the game has to stop so that someone can tell me what I would or wouldn't do based on my alignment is the last time I'm motivated to continuing to play that game. I'm not playing D&D so someone can tell me what to do.

It's also very important to me that it doesn't dictate in character action, but rather drives creative play. This is why I have a problem with "Get experience for opening this lock/casting healing spells/killing this monster." And not, say "You get double experience for any treasure you secretly hide from the party if you're a rogue and you get experience points for gold."*

This is even more distasteful to me when the action the character is forced to commit is a subjective one, e.g. "Uphold your religion." The only way I know if I've done that is if I ask the Dungeon Master. If it's just a tithe and spending time preaching what's the cost?  If it's actions in play, then I either have to act, uncertain of what the Dungeon Master considers "upholding my religion" or ask him what I should do.
      Requirements:
  • Objective
  • Drives interesting player behavior
  • Doesn't dictate player action
  • Doesn't cause the game to stop to justify in game actions

But the new Dungeons and Dragons gives experience points for fighting. Is there a way to handle this player expectation objectively? A simple metric where they get experience points for enemies, and not for slaying various wildlife creatures? Perhaps one that encourages creative play?

The Case In Point


Some of this requires a bit of worldbuilding. Certain threats in a heroic style game like fifth edition supports should be slain without question. Others, such as the Red Wizard at the Old Owl Well should not be slain without question. We don't want to punish combat in this instance, but we do want to provide an alternate method of earning experience without encouraging characters to engage in unnecessary combat.

It's an excellent example. If you were players, after finding the wizard and completing his quests, there is no mechanical reason not to kill him and a very good mechanical reason to kill him**. My Lawful or Chaotic Good fighter uses some rationalization to kill someone who has committed no crime because -- what? He decided?

Necromancy is not a crime in the realms. Really. Dungeons and Dragons Basic rules notes that Raising Undead isn't a good act and isn't done frequently by good people. That doesn't mean people should be executed for raising undead. In moments someone brings the objective or subjectiveness badness of raising undead and then. . .

My problem here is that this discussion solely to find a diegetic reason to kill an opponent so you can get the experience occurs. I don't want to have this discussion. I want to play D&D. I want it to be clear what you are rewarded for and I want that to integrate seamlessly with the mechanics to avoid diegetic discussions ("Well, I want to take this action, but why would my character?")

Hence Objectivity. Hence Objective Evil. Hence Factions.

Here is the outline for Old School Style Objective Experience in fifth edition. Note my use of the optional experience points for gold option granted in the Dungeon Masters Guide.

Old School Style Experience For Fightan!!!


There are five categories of opponents.
  • 1) Monsters are creatures that are objectively evil, irredeemable beasts who only desire the dissolution of all things.
    • Which creatures are monsters is dependent on the campaign. Some campaigns might deem orcs as monsters, whereas in the Forgotten Realms they are clearly intelligent opponents with a culture, classifying them as a Faction.
    • Natural Creatures, Faction members or Innocents that are hostile, turn hostile, or attack the party first are considered Monsters and grant experience.
    • If Natural Creatures that are hostile are released, befriended or neutralized without destroying or killing them double experience is given for good or neutral characters.
  • 2) Natural creatures are creatures, plants, constructs, and non-intelligent animals that are part of the ecosystem. 
    • Killing natural creatures grants no experience.
  • 3) Factions are people who belong to certain organizations that you have relationships in certain ways.
    • You get no experience for attacking or harming friendly or neutral factions.
    • You get listed Monster Experience for killing hostile factions.
      • Note: if you attack a neutral faction, you get no experience for killing in that combat, but if the factions bond becomes hostile, then in future combats you will receive the listed monster experience. Note that unlawful killing with malice aforethought makes you a Monster.
  • 4) Innocents are non-combatants and non-involved people.
    • Killing innocents never grants experience.
  • 5) Wonderous Creatures are individual magical beasts or singular unique creatures that do not belong to a faction. No experience is given for slaying such a creature. These are effectiely equivalent to a faction of one.
    • This includes such creatures as thinking undead, dragons, sphinxes, and other individual intelligences. 
    • Alignment does not categorize the creature as a Monster.
      • Chaotic creatures are unconcerned with civilization and the rule of order
      • Evil creatures are unconcerned with the well-being of other creatures
      • Creatures with Blue/Orange morality are treated as unstable factions, where the status of the faction is inconsistent between meetings.
      • Outsiders are considered a faction based on their nature and origin to primes.
      • Although these are objective realities, they do not consign creatures to being monsters. The following acts do, regardless of the motivation for the act.
        • Unlawfully Killing or attacking with malice aforethought members of a Friendly or Neutral factions, Innocents, or animals. Unlawfully means not legally justified murder, killing an animal for food or in self-defense is fine. Malice aforethought exists if a killer intends to kill a person, inflicts serious bodily harm that leads to death, or behavior that exhibits an extreme reckless disregard for human life.
        • Trafficking or acting directly as servants for Monsters. 
        • Intentionally causing severe suffering, such as rape, torture, or other evil acts
        • Human laws such as treason, sabotage, fraud, etc. that don't meet the above qualifications may make a person evil and may make them a criminal, but they don't make the person a Monster.

      • Experience is given 1:1 for treasure discovered. 
        • Treasure are non-owned items, trade goods, or coins of significant value. 
        • Evil creatures receive 5:1 experience for treasure discovered and not shared with companions.
        • Experience is given 1:1 + Experience of the monster or hostile faction member for equipment and gear taken.
          • Equipment and gear are owned items, trade goods, and coins of significant value from monsters or hostile factions.
          • Taking the treasure of a Monster or hostile Faction member grants experience as if the creature were killed, only if the creature was not killed.
          • Evil and Neutral creatures and characters receive 2:1 experience for equipment and gear taken from living opponents
        • The Listed Experience is given for Hostile Factions or Wondrous creatures that are bypassed or neutralized on a 1:1 basis. If made friendly and neutralized or captured and returned to justice grant experience on a 2:1 basis to good aligned characters. 
        • Player may at any time be informed of the status of any item or creature by request. ("Is this treasure?" "What type of category does our opponent fall into?")
          Complicated? A little, but it seems to both be clear and objective.

          In this example, the Wizard at the Old Owl well is neutral, and attacking and killing him provides no experience for the fight, though they would receive experience for his treasure after the combat. Stealing the treasure without fighting him would give no experience (taking from a neutral faction) but you'd have the treasure, and if discovered would make him both hostile and likely to attack you. The resulting combat would give you experience for killing him. Of course, you have to commit theft to cause that chain of events to occur.

          The Nothic in the Redbrand hideout would be a Hostile Wonderous creature, granting experience if killed, or able to have it's attitude changed to neutral or friendly.


          * Obviously there's some ground where "interesting play" is up for debate. For me "Killing a monster" dictates behavior, and isn't particularly interesting play once combat starts. In 4th edition, this might not be the case. "Opening locks" is normally a simple roll, but may be considered interesting play if you have a subsystem with player choice involved.
          ** It is super-duper important to note here that there may be plenty of non-mechanical reasons I can invent not to kill him, but I'm a firm believer I shouldn't have to fight the mechanics of the game as the Dungeon Master in order to have a non-dissonant play experience. In an old-school game murdering everyone isn't dissonant. It is much so in a big(ish) damn heroes game like 5e set in the forgotten realms.



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          On Advancement Mechanics, Experience

          Advancement Mechanics drive player behavior.

          Advancement Mechanics are common in Role-Playing Games. Unlike role-playing, improvisational acting, or character exploration exercises; games have mechanics to keep score.

          These score-keeping mechanics are what motivate players actions.

          There is an element of subjectivity to such scoring systems, but one assumes that such systems are used in good faith. After all, when playing chess one could purposely make a bad move in order to lose the game, but it is assumed in play that neither characters or the Dungeon Master are playing in bad faith.

          Whatever you attach your scoring system/advancement mechanic to is what players will desire to accomplish. 


          Driving Player Behavior -- Old School


          B/X
          In old-school versions of Dungeons & Dragons, experience points are given for gold. Though much maligned throughout most of the 90's, this is actually a brilliant mechanic that drives very interesting play.

          There is lots of derisive talk about "taking everything that's not nailed down" and "killing people for pocket change" but for people who have actually played in old school games for long periods of time know that both of those arguments are made out of ignorance.

          Rapidly you discover in play that you're not looking for gold. You're looking for treasure. Those who engage humanoids in combat for the paltry experience and gold they have on them experience heavy losses. Those who try to move every semi-valuable item out of the dungeon expose themselves to wandering monster checks that always begin with them at a disadvantage due to the weight carried. Even piles of gold weigh too much for any but the most neophyte adventures to bother with.

          What type of behavior does this drive?

          From my years of playing experience. . .


          • Characters avoid fights in every situation possible, always preferring to talk or flee. This is possible probably 2/3 of the time.
          • They engage any sentient opponent respectfully out of a desire to either enlist their aid or discover where such a treasure might actually be.
          • When presented with a treasure, they spend a substantial portion of game-play planning how to extract it from any guardians that may be guarding it in the safest way possible.
          • They engage environments as if they are puzzles because they may contain treasure, secret doors to treasure, or clues there-of.
          Basically this results in role-playing and planning heavy sessions with a large player buy-in and strong reinforcement for creative and intelligent play.

          But how does my fighter swing a sword better by acquiring gold?

          *sigh*.  Ok. Ignore the fact that you don't question dragons, people slinging spells, friendly relations between wildly different races. Then ignore the fact that you've never asked who prints the money the banker in Monoply uses, or asked why bishops can just move to any square. Then ignore the fact that it's a game, and the entire purpose of advancement rules and win conditions is to drive interesting play.

          They get better at swinging their sword from the experience of acquiring the treasure.

          Driving Player Behavior -- New School


          Of course this changed when second and third edition was released.

          Both editions give away experience for the killing of monsters, instead of for the acquisition of treasure. This fundamentally changes the tone and nature of the game. 

          Now, players are driven to approach the game by asking "What non-experience point resources can I extract from this encounter before I kill it?" 

          Any group of NPC's, humanoids, innocent forest creatures that goes unkilled is advancement and rewards you are leaving on the table. The game becomes only about the next encounter, so that we can kill it for our experience points and magic items. 

          There are usually two common responses to the above criticism.

          The first is that you can also get experience points for "defeating" opponents. This argument is, of course, a strawman, because we aren't talking about the player behavior that's driven when faced with a specific designed objective in the dungeon - we are talking about the player behavior during emergent gameplay. They meet an interesting forest animal? Their best course of action is to kill it. To do otherwise would retard their advancement.

          Of course the Dungeon Master can create in-game reasons to cause players not to act on the impulses the advancement system rewards them for, but I shouldn't have to fight the system to make it work correctly.

          The second common reply is that 'story awards' or 'role-playing awards' can be given. Games with the subjective methods of advancement are, well subjective. It is neither clear or objective, which are generally considered good things for win conditions to be in games. After all, at the end of a chess game, wargame, or game of charades, no one says "Well, who do you feel won the game?" We look at the score.
          • What's the objective metric of "Good role-play"?
          • How are you measuring that?
          • How do I know what you think "playing my class correctly" consists of? 
          • If it involves you telling me what I should do when, then am I necessary?
          • How do I determine what arbitrary goals you're assigning experience to in this encounter? 
          Trying to meet another human beings subjective, and likely poorly communicated, goals is not a way I like to spend my recreation time. There isn't any question about how many gold pieces the necklace is worth, it's written down right there. I can make a decision in the game about what action to take and know objectively how successful I am.

          What's Wrong With Experience for Combat Again?


          Nothing. In a linear 4e style or adventure path type adventure it's great! I like playing in those types of games. They are fun.


          But what about my Character exploration role-playing feel-goodery?!


          If you want to eliminate the scoring and advancement mechanic from the game, more power to you. I'm specifically talking about advancement systems in traditional role-playing games, which are generally very objective.

          I understand that people like to do other things, but without an objective metric, it has moved too far away from 'game' for me and too close to 'unstructured play'.

          Tracking Experience is a lot of work, so I just level people after so many sessions of attendance. 


          I can understand why this is simple and attractive, but personally if what I'm being rewarded for in the game is showing up, I might find myself a bit bored when no action I take has any effect on my ability to advance.

          But you're supposed to have personal character goals in role-playing!


          Well, that's sort of exactly my point. I am. There is the explicit condition set by the game for advancement that drives my behavior and then there are the goals I decide to peruse. 

          None of the alternate experience options do anything other than hinder my ability to do that. If I'm given points for attendance, then there's no behavior I can engage in to increase my rate of advancement to achieve my goals faster. If I'm hoop-jumping to figure out what you're handing experience points out, then I'm perusing your idea of what my goals should be, and I already have a day job, thank you very much. 

          On Old School Pathfinder

          My brother, astounded by the changes in
          3.5 ("Whadda mean there's no
           level drain?!")
          My home game is a modern version of Dungeons and Dragons. Here's what happens.

          "I mortalbane anything that appears."

          Skum jumps out of the water? Mortalbane. Kick open a door? Mortalbane. That plus the 2d6 from the arcane blast is pretty effective at level 3. Not that the combat druid and her trip happy wolf aren't pulling their weight.

          The point is, if there's something coming, our default move is to kill it every time.

          We had an encounter with an albino bear. My wife says "I don't think we should kill everything."

          I say, ok, but that's experience points drifting away on the wind! That's one more encounter we are going to need till we reach level 4.

          What's your point?


          Well, gaining Experience from Killing Monsters drives a very specific sort of play. The play where you kill people after talking to them because that's how you extract experience points from the game. It's a very different play-style than old school play.

          But all is not lost! You can give Experience for Gold in Pathfinder with almost no changes and I'm here to tell you how!

          What's this Sorcery? 

          Initially this seems like a very complicated problem. Design-wise, equipment, and by extension wealth-by-level, are a substantial portion of player power. If you handed out gold for experience and the players were over or under-leveled, then their power level would be off versus the CR of opponents. This might not seem like a big deal to anyone who's never had to run combats week after week for a 9th level Pathfinder party, but having those numbers off makes things a lot more difficult. (Not impossible, just difficult)

          Thankfully, however, we can give Experience for Gold and lose nothing.

          The wealth by level table tells us 15% of every level should be in disposable goods. This means the actual gold awarded to reach the appropriate wealth by level will be 10%-20% higher than what's listed. 

          Here is the expected player wealth at level 2: 1000 gp. Here is the experience needed for fast level advancement: 1300 xp. Here is the expected gain it wealth between level 2 to level 3: 2,000 gp.  Here is the experience needed to gain level 3 from level 2: 2,000 xp. Here. I will make a table. Note that this table shows what you need to acquire between each level, and not the totals, like the Wealth-By-Level chart here or the Character Advancement Chart here.


          Level Fast XP Wealth per level Difference
          1 0 0 0
          2 1,300 1,000 -300
          3 2,000 2,000 0
          4 2,700 3,000 300
          5 4,000 4,500 500
          6 5,000 5,500 500
          7 8,000 7,500 -500
          8 9,000 9,500 500
          9 16,000 13,000 -3,000
          10 21,000 16,000 -5,000
          11 34,000 20,000 -14,000
          12 40,000 26,000 -14,000
          13 65,000 32,000 -33,000
          14 85,000 45,000 -40,000
          15 130,000 55,000 -75,000
          16 175,000 75,000 -100,000
          17 250,000 95,000 -155,000
          18 350,000 120,000 -230,000
          19 500,000 155,000 -345,000
          20 700,000 195,000 -505,000

          Let me answer your questions!

          But the chart breaks down around level 9! The players will get waaaay more gold then they should have. 

          The Wealth-By-Level chart indicates the amount of gold players should have invested into magic items. Any gold or wealth they receive beyond that, as long as it is non-convertible to magic items, still provides experience and does not increase player wealth.

          What kind of things are we talking about here? Taxes. Land deeds. Castle expenses. Army Upkeep. Magic item theft and destruction. Disposable magic items. Exactly the same types of things old school characters begin to deal with at that point.

          But what if I don't want to use the fast level advancement chart?

          Conveniently pathfinder includes this handy Treasure Values per Encounter chart, meaning that if you use the fast advancement chart and hand out treasure based on the slow treasure values per encounter, you will get some slow advancement! This assumes a party of 4. You can further adjust the advancement rate based on the number of party members using fractions. E.g. if you want to do the slow rate, and have 5 party members, 170 gp times 5 party members is 850, divided by 4 is 212 gp per encounter with 5 players instead of 170.

          This is dumb because you have to do shenanigans to remove gold, and experience for gold is dumb, and your blog sucks. 

          Well. It requires very little for 9 levels and what happens at that point usually requires gold that doesn't turn into gear, there's a ton of literature about the type of play gold for experience drives, and I have often found that people that hate on this blog (oh, and they are out there) often have not released a ton of content for free.

          I've gotten rid of handing out experience points and just automatically level the party-

          ugh.

          Enjoy a completely new Pathfinder experience!

          *Pathfinder pendants: Yes, my home game is 3.5 and uses a warlock. The example is from a very similar game that hands out experience for very similar things! Do not get hung up on the details!

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